A Investigation Into Truth: Sunni, Miracles Are Actions Of Prophets, And Salafi, Miracles Are Actions Of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala).

[MuhammedAli]

A Investigation Into Truth: Sunni, Miracles Are Actions Of Prophets, And Salafi, Miracles Are Actions Of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala).

Introduction:

During a discussion with a Salafi brother on subject of Istighathah I learnt and he claimed Salafis believe miracles performed by Prophets are actually performed by Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) and not by His Prophets. As an ex-Salafi it was bit of surprise to me because during my Salafi days I held to belief; miracle is action of a Prophet. The understanding supporting was that the supernatural power/ability was given to Prophets by Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) and they employed these supernatural powers after securing permission from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). He was quite clear and bold in saying that you don’t know what you’re talking about because you in your ‘ex-Salafi’ did know then and even now you do not represent Salafi belief in regards to miracles. And as it happens in debates/discussions my response was, no matie, you don’t know what you talking about, because you’re not representing what Salafi scholarship teaches. Fortunately the discussion on the topic was flowing and we both moved on from, who represents true Salafi belief on miracles. It reached conclusion and truth dominated falsehood but thought of underlined above remained with me. I did the best thing I could, ask former staunch Salafi brother Umar, whose stance was represented by traditional Salafi scholarship, and he said brother Abdur Rahman al-Salafi. To prove brother Umar and brother Abdur Rahman wrong I decided to chat with Da’ee’s (i.e. inviters) on IslamReligion website, here. Agents on this website typically invite non-Muslims to [Wahhabi/Salafi] Islam and therefore are very knowledgable about Salafism/Wahhabism. Some of the agents are senior Tulab (i.e. students) and some of them are qualified [Salafi] scholars. I was hoping get validation for my misunderstanding but instead I was confronted with opposition which made it clear to me that Salafis like Deobandis believe miracles are actions of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) and not Prophets. Unexpectedly my queries evovled into a discussion between myself and brother Faruq. Contents of which are being made available for readers in the hope that it be some use for seekers. Note today on 27^th Dec 2021 once again I visited the Salafi help line/chat looking for brother Faruq so I can share with him link of our discussion. My questions lead to a discussion between ?brother/sister? Dina and contents are being shared.

Salafi  at 1:04, Sep 6:
Hello. Welcome to our live chat. How can I assist you today?

Sunni  at 1:04, Sep 6:
Salam alaykum brother Faruq. I have very quick question. Sorry to bother you here.

Sunni  at 1:04, Sep 6:
Waalaikom Assalam!

Sunni  at 1:04, Sep 6:
Is a miracle action of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) or action of Prophet?

Salafi  at 1:05, Sep 6:
Please, feel free to ask. Blessing of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) for/on a Prophet. All power in the action is from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala).

Sunni  at 1:05, Sep 6:
Who performs the action? I mean all power of what I do is from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) but my actions are mine so would miracle would be a Prophet’s action? All power to a Prophet is from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) including power to perform miracle so is the miracle action of Prophet?

Salafi  at 1:08, Sep 6:
I am not understanding what you are saying but I hope this example helps Prophet Musa on whom be peace hit the water with his stick, action of Musa, the water split in two, Miracle from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) the stick did not split the water.

Sunni  at 1:09, Sep 6:
So the outward action of hitting the rock is of Prophet Musa's but splitting the rock is action of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)?

Salafi  at 1:11, Sep 6:
Rock is not mentioned in what I stated above.

Sunni  at 1:10, Sep 6:
Sea*

Salafi  at 1:11, Sep 6:
Also no outward or inward. Rather just clear this. Action by Prophet Musa is hitting the water, splitting the sea is not an action of Musa that is a Miracle from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). The miracle is not an action of Prophet Musa.

Sunni  at 1:12, Sep 6:
So did Prophet Musa (alayhis salam) did the action and Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) enabled parting of sea? OK! In other words miracle is action of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) and not Prophet Musa (alayhis salam).

Salafi  at 1:13, Sep 6:
Please explain what seems to be confusing from what I mentioned above. I am not understanding the need to re-phrase or change what is mentioned to ask again. Please explain what seems to be confusing

Sunni  at 1:13, Sep 6:
(i) There isn't anything confusing. I am just trying to make sure I have your point of view as clear as day. So I am presenting same thing in different ways to make sure what I have understood what you intended to say. (ii) When Prophet Isa said, I give life to dead, breath life into clay figurines, bi iznillah. It seems he is saying he is performing the miracle but with permission from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) and not Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) is performing miracle through his actions.

Salafi  at 1:16, Sep 6:
Now I see the importance of phrasing it the way you mentioned. How ever you left some in Arabic? Why? What happens when you translate that part?

Sunni  at 1:16, Sep 6:
With his permission. With permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). Let me quote you the verse.

Salafi  at 1:18, Sep 6:
Utilizing the permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) so clearly it is not him doing it.

Sunni  at 1:18, Sep 6:
Wait brother. You're utilizing His permission to type and talk to me does that mean you're not engaged in the action but He is? To have permission to do something is not same Him doing action for you. I give you permission to slap Amr. You slap Amr with your own hand. I slapped Amr because I gave you permission?

Salafi at 1:20, Sep 6:
What you seem to be doing now as above is trying to place the same limits of creation on the Creator which is false. When we say done with the permission, or will of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala), means this is the only way possible, cannot happen without this. Does not mean there is a way Easaa could have done that without Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). While in your example slapping Amr does not need permission from a human all the permission does is add an accomplice.

[(i) Despite what brother Faruq says here: “When we say done with the permission, or will of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala), means this is the only way possible, cannot happen without this.” He is wrong because we have example of Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) making a clay figurine with permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) and making a clay figurine was not supernatural action yet despite it Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) says it was made with His permission: “… and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission …” [Ref: 5:110] The bottom line is that His permission is required for all actions His creation performs. Be it natural or supernatural. Everything happens with His permission and nothing can happen without His permission. Leaf grow with His permission. It cannot fall without His permission. It cannot be pulled off a branch without His permission. A creation cannot move, hear, see, smell, taste, touch, and without His permission. Nothing happens in the universe without His permission be it natural or supernatural. (ii) In some cases permission is required to perform certain actions. When Dhul Khawaisirah at-Tamim the Khariji insulted Prophet (sallallallahu alayhi wa aalihi was’sallam) Khalid Ibn al-Waleed (radiallah ta’ala anhu) sought permission to kill him, here. He didn’t need to but he did ask the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi was’sallam). This proves that permission isn’t only sought when action cannot be performed without it. Rather there maybe other reasons due to which permission is sought. Another example, a weak man, Amr, unable to defend himself from an assailant gets help of a strong man, Bakr, who is able to subdue and avenge Amr. Bakr seeks permission from Amr to punish Zayd. Amr grants permission. In this scenario Bakr could have unilaterally decided to hand out justice to Zayd but he sought permission. It could be that Bakr sought permission because he was unsure if Amr will forgive Zayd forsake of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) or would require pound of flesh as revenge. And permission to dish out justice provided answer in this regard. (iii) Yes! Amr giving Bakr the permission to slap Zayd means Amr is accomplice. The point which needed tackling was that permission from Amr to Bakr does not mean Amr has performed the action. It only means Amr is an accomplice due to granted permission. And similarly His permission makes Him party to action but He is not enactor of action as Amr was not. Meaning He is involved indirectly in action of miracle because He granted the powers needing for it and granted permission for it but action of miracle is not His. (iv) Permission from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) does not mean action of miracle is His because He grants permission for natural and supernatural. If natural action is His then so is supernatural. And if natural isn’t His action even though He granted the power/ability/knowledge for action to creation but action is of creation then supernatural powers which He granted to His creation and supernatural-actions performed due to them mean actions are of creation too.]

Sunni  at 1:23, Sep 6:
No, brother I am interpreting the, by permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala), I have just explained to you that permission to engage in action doesn't mean one who gave permission has performed the action. Rather it means action performers action is his own but permission is from another. Prophets can engage in all actions including miracles but they must secure His permission to perform miracle. When permission is granted the Nabi performs miracle.

Salafi  at 1:24, Sep 6:
That does not mean that in terms of creation. Again please stop thinking that whatever is mentioned in relation to creation is the same when in relation to the Creator.

Sunni  at 1:24, Sep 6:
Anyhow, you can have your say and I will hear you out.

Salafi  at 1:24, Sep 6:
This is an error

Sunni  at 1:25, Sep 6:
Your position that, miracle is action of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) and not of Prophet, is this in any Salafi text?

Salafi  at 1:27, Sep 6:
Also let me make this clear: “(Remember) when Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) will say (on the Day of Resurrection). “O ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al-Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic.’ “  [Ref: 5:110] When you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, for clarity in what you stated above.

Sunni  at 1:30, Sep 6:
It is the same thing brother, both verses say the same thing.

Salafi  at 1:30, Sep 6:
The action as mentioned when you made out of the clay, as it were the figure of a bird by My Permission,and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission,

Sunni  at 1:30, Sep 6:
Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) says by my permission and he says by Allah’s (subhanahu wa ta’ala) permission. Same meaning and explanation applies for both.

Salafi  at 1:32, Sep 6:
“And will make him [‘Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)’s Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.” [Ref: 3:49] I have come to you with a sign from your Lord = miracle from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala), not from Jesus on whom be peace. That I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, actions of Jesus on whom be peace, and then again, and it becomes a bird by Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)’s Leave. Does NOT claim he has the power. This is a claim of Christianity. Hope this is clear this time.

Sunni  at 1:33, Sep 6:
Give me a second. "... and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, …" [Ref: 5:110] Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) says you created a figure of bird from clay by my permission. To make a clay bird a dummy of bird Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) gave permission. This permission was not about miracle of breathing life to it rather about making dummy. Permission was from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) but the action and creation of dummy by Prophet Isa (alayhis salam). This proves permission from Him does not result action to be His and anything created due to His permission is created by Prophet/creation. Now why would Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) need to give him permission?

Salafi  at 1:35, Sep 6:
Hands could have not worked. Could have tried but bird could have looked like a bear etc.

Sunni  at 1:35, Sep 6:
Exactly thats the point, everything you and I do requires Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)’s permission. I move my finger by permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). I slap a Kafir by permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala).

Salafi  at 1:36, Sep 6:
However the miracle is not an action of ours that is the point.

Sunni at 1:36, Sep 6:
I read Quran by His permission, but action is mine. I perform Salah action is mine even though it is by His permsion. Prophet performs miracle by His permission action of is Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)??

[Point is that everything we do is on basis of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) giving us permission and He giving us power. Our actions are ours because He gave power to us to perform the action and granted us permission to act freely as we desire. Similarly miracles of Prophets are actions of Prophets because He has given them power over miracle and permission to perform the miracle. Hence miracles are actions of Prophets performed with His granted permission and power.]

Salafi  at 1:38, Sep 6:
Notice how you need to jump to all these other examples then try to force that logic from those examples on the case from the Ayah? Notice how your logic does not apply to the ayah as mentioned multiple times above. The actions of hitting the water, making the bird, blowing etc are the prophet’s. None of these are the miracle. The life in the bird and the splitting of the sea are miracles from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). Hope this is clear this time

Sunni  at 1:40, Sep 6:
You told me not to apply what is true for miracles upon actions of creation. You told me not to apply bi iznillah deduction derived in context of natural events upon supernatural event of miracles. But Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) made it quite clear that His permission is required for everything and including miracles. If His permission doesn't make my action into His action then Prophet Isa’s (alayhis salam) miracle is not action of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) but permission and power to perform miracle is from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala).

Sunni  at 1:40, Sep 6:
Brother I am not continuing this. What I am interested is has Salafi scholarship said what you're saying? Back in my days I hadn’t read anything like this. Everyone was saying miracle is a prophet’s action.

Sunni  at 1:46, Sep 6:
What you're saying about Prophet Musa (alayhis salam) hitting the water of sea and this action being his but power that parted sea wasn't his but of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). This makes no sense, why would Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) need for Prophet Musa (alayhis salam) to hit the water? Is it because Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) couldn't part the water without Prophet Musa's (alayhis salam) input? Or was Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) asking him to do some drama so people are convinced he is true Prophet? You do the acting i.e. hitting the sea with staff and I will part the sea for you. And you will look, all good, and strong, and a true Prophet, and you will impress everyone with your acting that you’re a true Prophet. Thats what it boils down to.

Salafi  at 1:47, Sep 6:
“Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Every Prophet was given miracles because of which people believed, but what I have been given, is Divine Inspiration which Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) has revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will outnumber the followers of the other Prophets on the Day of Resurrection."

Sunni  at 1:47, Sep 6:
Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) blowing into clay figurines even though Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) doesnt need him to blow but ... you do the acting act way ...

Salafi  at 1:48, Sep 6:
We are all told to play our part. Your claims are the ways of the Christians. Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) needs? This is not mentioned from what I showed you.

Sunni  at 1:48, Sep 6:
One Bible verse says: I myself can do nothing of my ownself. And the other: I cast out demons by the finger of God ... These verses are not exactly representing my beleif is it? More like yours my brother. Smile. Biblical belief you're forcing on Quranic verses. Too much Shaykh Ahmad Deedat (rahimullah) effect on you brother. Smile.

Salafi  at 1:52, Sep 6:
“Narrated Abdullah: We used to consider miracles as Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)'s Blessings, but you people consider them to be a warning. Once we were with Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)'s Messenger on a journey, and we ran short of water. He said, "Bring the water remaining with you." The people brought a utensil containing a little water. He placed his hand in it and said, "Come to the blessed water, and the Blessing is from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)." I saw the water flowing from among the fingers of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)'s Messenger, and no doubt, we heard the meal glorifying Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala), when it was being eaten (by him).” Again, miracle from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) as I told you and now the Salaf tell you and the Ahadeeth tell you.

Sunni  at 1:53, Sep 6:
So why did RasoolAllah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) put the hand in the utensil? Couldn't Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) make water abundant without the hand of Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa aalihi was’sallam) in water?

Salafi  at 1:55, Sep 6:
Again same error as stated before I will repeat for you. Again please stop thinking that whatever is mentioned in relation to creation is the same when in relation to the Creator. What you seem to be doing now as above is trying to place the same limits of creation on the Creator.

Sunni  at 1:55, Sep 6:
I am not placing any limitations I am just trying you to think. I don't need answer. I need you to think on the question being asked. I am not placing any limitations, I am not denying power of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala).

Salafi  at 1:56, Sep 6:
Sorry, I can't assist you any further. Have a good day! Ipchatbl

[Ipchatbl  = IPChatBlock which blocked my IP address from connecting to their server thus preventing me from joining the chat again.]

Sunni  at 1:56, Sep 6:
He Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) can do it with hand of Messenger in the utensil and out of the utensil.

Info at 1:56, Sep 6:
Thank you for chatting with us.

Conclusion:

Unfortunately the discussion got stuck on what phrase bi iznillah (by permisison of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala) denotes. Near the end, 1:40 onward, I attempted to steer the discussion through questioning toward issue of physical actions of Prophets and lack of need of actions if miracle was performed by Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). The objective of questioning was to establish; Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) has granted supernatural powers, which He created, and granted to His Anbiyah/Awliyah. They utilize these (His created/granted supernatural) powers through their own actions to perform a Mojzah/Karamah. As such the actions which the Prophets performed to display the Mojzah such as Prophet Musa (alayhis salam) striking the sea with his staff, Prophet Isa (alayahis salam) blowing on clay figurine were means of utilizing the given supernatural powers. Also permission is sought for, permission is needed for something which is out of our jurisdiction. Natural is in jurisdiction of creation but supernatural isn’t. And Prophets were granted power/ability over supernatural hence to employ it they need to secure His permission. A common soilder fire his gun at enemy positions when as needed but elite security in charge of nuclear bombs do they have the same authority/power to fire when and as needed? No! They have to be authorised to fire nuclear missiles. In similar fashion Prophets when they employ arguments/proofs to promote Islam they have general permission but when they go for nuclear option of Mojzah they secure permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) for it even though they have power/ability to perform the action. Therefore to secure permission and to perform actions with His permission does not mean action is performed by one who has authorized it.

Info  at 16:45, Dec 27:

You are now chatting with Samy. .

Samy  at 16:45, Dec 27:
Hello. Welcome to our live chat.

How can I assist you today?

Sunni  at 16:45, Dec 27:

salam alaykum. Is brother Faruq online at the moment

Samy  at 16:48, Dec 27:

Waalaikom Assalam! Sorry, no

Sunni  at 16:47, Dec 27:

If possible can you let him know that the discussion he had with me on here has been published, here.

Samy  at 16:50, Dec 27:

Ok, fine!

Sunni  at 16:49, Dec 27:

Just one que.

Sunni  at 16:49, Dec 27:

Do Salafis believe the supernatural in a miracle is act of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala), or supernatural is act of prophet because Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) granted the powers to prophet?

Samy  at 16:56, Dec 27:

It is the act of God showed on His Prophet's hands to prove he is a real prophet of God.

Sunni  at 16:55, Dec 27:

Jazakallah. Is this position old or a recently arrived understanding?

Samy  at 16:58, Dec 27:

It is the definition of the miracle from a very old time

Sunni  at 16:58, Dec 27:

I am former Salafi I have been under impression that it was action of prophet because supernatural was granted to prophet to perform the action. Do you have any resource like of Shaykh Ibn Baaz

Samy  at 17:00, Dec 27:

I am sorry; I need to go now as my shift has come to an end. If you wish I can transfer you to my colleague.

Sunni  at 16:59, Dec 27:

Please do.

Info  at 17:01, Dec 27:

Please wait while your chat is transferred to Dina.
You are now chatting with Dina.

Sunni  at 17:01, Dec 27:
Salam alaykum.

Dina  at 17:03, Dec 27:

Waalaikom Assalam!

Sunni  at 17:02, Dec 27:

I enquired if supernatural in a miracle was act of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) or Prophet and agent said Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). [He said] Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) performed the supernatural through His Prophet.

Dina  at 17:04, Dec 27:

OK.

Sunni  at 17:02, Dec 27:

what I want to know is if there is evidence from [major Salafi Shuyukh like of] Shaykh Ibn Baz, Shaykh Uthaymeen, Shaykh Saleh al-Fawzan [in support of what you are saying]?

Sunni  at 17:03, Dec 27: “Sunni  at 16:49, Dec 27: Just one que. Sunni  at 16:49, Dec 27: Do Salafis believe the supernatural in a miracle is act of Allah, or supernatural is act of prophet because Allah granted the powers to prophet? Samy  at 16:56, Dec 27: It is the act of God showed on His prophet's hands to prove he is a real prophet of God.”

Dina  at 17:06, Dec 27:

The evidence is in the Quran. See Surat al-Imran Verse 49.

Sunni  at 17:06, Dec 27:

Wait please. I have already discussd this with brother Faruq. He is part of your team but I will look at the verse. Give me a second, here.

Dina  at 17:09, Dec 27:

What's the issue exactly?

Sunni  at 17:07, Dec 27:

Let me look into the verse.

Dina  at 17:09, Dec 27:

I have to step away for prayer.

Dina  at 17:09, Dec 27:

I will be back in about 10 minutes in shaa' Allah.

Sunni  at 17:09, Dec 27:

In shaa'Allah.

Dina at 17:24, Dec 27:

Baraka Allah feekum.

Sunni  at 17:23, Dec 27:

I looked into the verse. “And will make him a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah’s Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe.” [Ref: 3:49] The Ayah says Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) permitted performing of supernatural acts i.e. miracles. How does that prove your point/position?

Dina  at 17:28, Dec 27:

There's no differences of opinion about that. Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) allowed such miracles to be performed through his prophets as proof for their truthfulness/prophethood. Period. Please let's not argue.

Sunni  at 17:28, Dec 27:

Brother if Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala) performed the supernatural i.e. miracle then what did He permit the Prophets to do? [Quran says] Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) raised the dead by His permission etc. This Ayah would makes no sense [if supernatural was performed by Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala even after He permitted Prophet Isa alayhis salam to perform the supernatural action.]

Dina  at 17:32, Dec 27:

Different prophets had different miracles that were suitable for their time/age.

Sunni  at 17:32, Dec 27:

For example … Wait brother let me finish.

Sunni  at 17:33, Dec 27:

To say that Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) performed the miracle but Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) raised the dead makes no sense whatsoever. Because Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) gave permission to Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) to perform the miracle/supernatural. If Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) performed the supernatural through Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) then exactly what did He permit Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) to do in following miracles: “and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah’s Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah’s Leave” [Ref: 3:49] Permission granted was to perform miracle/supernatural. If granted permission did not include permission to perform supernatural then what did Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) permit Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) to perform? Clearly the verses say Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) performed the supernatural action of miracle but with His permission.

Dina  at 17:36, Dec 27:

Did you not read the ayah? “In the time of Moses, the Egyptians were advance in Magic and sorcery, that is why the miracles of Moses revolved around things which seemed to be magic , but were not. In the time of Jesus, …” [Ref: see full quote, here, by MAR.]

Sunni  at 17:37, Dec 27:

I did brother. Brother please don't divert the topic [by posting material not related to topic]. We are having a fruitfull and healthy discussion [and unrelated content will take good away from this discussion].

Sunni  at 17:38, Dec 27:
I was going to say that Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) says in verse, Q3:49, I heal, I raise the dead, I breath to make bird with permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). In Ayah, Q5:110, Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) says to Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) that you made, you healed, you raised the dead by My permission: “… and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and …“  [Ref: 5:110] In both verses the supernatural/miracle is associated with Prophet Isa (alayhis salam). In one Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) says I did this and that. In other Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) says you did this and that. Yet you are saying supernatural was action of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala). Having permission of Amr to perform an action is not same as Amr performing the action of Bakr.

Dina  at 17:41, Dec 27:

We like to assist all people, but we don't have enough staff. That is why this chat service is mainly for non-Muslims and new Muslims. If you need a Fatwa, you can submit your question to one of these websites: …And we hope you will receive an answer soon! By doing so, you will be helping us to carry out our dawah work more efficiently. May Allah reward you for your understanding and thank you for visiting our site. Have a nice day. Assalamu Alaikum. Lpchatbl.

Info

 at 17:41, Dec 27:

Thank you for chatting with us.

[Dina left the chat but I had to deliver my train of thoughts and I have done that below.]

Sunni: at 17:42, Dec 27:
Harry seeks permission from Tom to use wash room. Tom permits Harry to use his wash room. Question is did Harry use the  bathroom or did Amr? Did Harry perform the action or did Amr? Permission does not mean one who permitted a action to be performed has performed the action. I remember what Shaykh Ahmad Deedat (rahimullah) said to Jimmy Swaggart in debate. Shaykh Ahmad Deedat (rahimullah) demonstrated a contradiction in Jewish Bible: “And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.” [Ref: 1 Chronicles 21:1] VS “And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.” [Ref: 2 Samuel 24:1] One book says Satan instructed Prophet Dawood (alayhis salam) to number Israel and other verse says it was Lord. After the numbering Jewish Lord was angered that Prophet Dawud (alayhis salam) numbered Israel and like a true anti-Semite smote 40’000 of them dead. Jimmy Swaggart responded saying no there is no contradiction because in reality it was Satan who instructed Prophet Dawud (alayhis salam) to number Israel but God permitted it Satan to incite David therefore God instruct too. Shaykh Ahmad Deedat (rahimullah) replied. OK. In that case God allowed Hitler to kill six million Jews would you say God killed Jews and not Hitler. And would Hitler go free because permission from God means action is of God? In this light read the following underlined: "... and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, …"[Ref: 5:110] Did Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) make the figurine of a bird  due to permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala)? Or did Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) make figurine of bird? Note the underlined is only talking about clay figure of bird. The part in which Prophet Isa (alayhis salam) blows on it and becomes a actual bird with permission of Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) is to follow. Permission from Allah (subhanahu wa ta’ala) does not mean/result in action becoming His.

Wama alayna ilal balagh ul-mubeen.
Muhammed Ali Razavi.

Edited 27 دسمبر 2021 by MuhammedAli